Nancy Reyner Transcript (Ep. 63)
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Nancy Reyner 0:00
What I like about acrylic is that it can imitate the effects of the techniques of any other medium, and I mean any other medium perfectly.
Kelly Anne Powers 0:10
Hello and welcome to the learn to paint podcast, the show that gives you the tools and ideas to help you design your own artistic path. I'm your host Kelly Anne powers. Today I'm talking with artist Nancy Reiner. In the conversation you'll discover the absolute versatility of acrylics, the power of learning to look at your work like a viewer and how to not destroy a painting that's almost finished, plus a whole lot more. In the bonus conversation available@patreon.com slash learn to paint podcast we dig more into Rayners ocean and gold leaf series and you'll learn how focal points can help move your viewer from a left brain to a right brain experience and why it matters. Joining Patreon is a great way to get access to fun bonus conversations all while supporting the show. Learn more at patreon.com/learn to paint podcast for Show Notes head to learn to paint podcast.com/podcast/episode 63 All right, here we go. Hi, Nancy, thank you for being with us today. What do you love about acrylics?
Nancy Reyner 1:17
What do I love about it? Oh boy, I don't think we have enough time. No, I'll keep it short. But I just want to say that I use all kinds of mediums. I've been trained as an oil painter when I went to art school and also watercolor and mixed media, you name it but trained as an oil painter. I thought Why would I ever use acrylic This was way back maybe 20 years ago. I mean, you could do everything with oil paint, I thought then I felt like I was in a lineage of the old masters and oil painting is a beautiful medium it really is. So all the mediums are great. It doesn't matter what you use, it's really what you're saying and what makes you feel like it's your right arm. So what I like about acrylic is that it can imitate the effects of the techniques of any other medium. And I mean any other medium perfectly. It can look just like Encaustic wax which a lot of people have trouble with the wax because it has toxic solvents in it usually uses Damar varnish in there. Most acrylic is water based and therefore is non toxic. So I like that but it can create a caustic effects, watercolor effects, oil paint effects, it could do the whole thing with one medium. What I really liked about it was when I was using oil paint, I didn't realize that I was limiting myself because of the toxic nature of the varnishes. Now there are some non toxic varnishes Gamblin makes some but it just wasn't the same. I wasn't getting transparency. So I was my paintings were pretty heavy. And when I switched to acrylic, it was a hard switch. It took me a year to paint like I was used to painting with oil paint. But then the world was wide open, I could do so much. And I realized that I could use a lot of transparency which I do in my work glazes I could do non toxically. So when I was teaching acrylic, and I had taught oil paint first then when I was teaching acrylic, I realized it took me a lot longer to get people over what I call a technical hump. Like with oil paint, maybe a couple hours and everyone's painting is still life. You know, for beginner oil paints, with acrylic, I needed to give them some chemistry some basis for how to work with the material. So there was a longer time to get to that top of the technical hump where now you get you get it. But what I was telling students is Okay, give me a little more time in the beginning to get you up that technical hump. But once you get up there, the view is so much better. So that's all the reasons I love acrylic.
Kelly Anne Powers 3:39
You mentioned that technical hump, what do you think is important for people to understand about the chemistry of acrylics that will help them in their art practice.
Nancy Reyner 3:50
All paint is really very simple. It's two main components which are pigment which give it the color and if that looks like dirt, you can like buy it plain in a jar and shake it around like dirt and then it's added into or mixed together with what's called a binder. The binder is usually clear because if it's not it's going to affect the color with oil paint you have oil plus pigment oils, the binder with in caustic its wax and pigment that's actually little yellow and then watercolors actually gum arabic not water no matter because the binder so with acrylic it's polymer or acrylic is the binder now with all the other meetings except acrylic you have one basic binder so with oil paint, I mean you have different oils, you could use sesame oil, olive oil, not baby oil, but you can use different oils but it's still oil with acrylic. The binder has three different categories of which are a dozen or more products in each category so it can get very confusing when you go to the art store you go to the shelf and go oh my god like there's all these at first golden was all white, you know, like you feel like you're in a lab but now they've added color to their their labels. is smart, but it can get really confusing. And I do have a course that goes through really is 30 videos, each one's like 45 minutes with a lot, but it goes through all this more deeply. But it's can be very simple. three categories of binders, mediums, gels and pastes. And each one of those mediums, gels and pastes has different qualities and different reasons you would use them, you don't just get a medium ajla pist. There's like different mediums, different gels different ways, but they all fall on the same characteristics. So that said, like, for instance, mediums and gels have a transparency pastes are opaque. So you can take a transparent color make it opaque by adding paste, you can make it more transparent by a medium. So what can you do with these, you can do three things you can customize the surface before you even paint on it, which by the way, acrylic can be used underneath most of the other mediums not at caustic, but under watercolor under oil paint, you could create different qualities in the surface to make it more absorbent, less absorbent, textural. So these products are actually used by oil painters, and Acrylic Painters and watercolors to create different types of surfaces. And that creates very contemporary, very new special effects. So that's one way you could use the medium cells and pace the other is you can mix them into the paint customize the paint. So when people say I don't like acrylic, I'm like what is the aspect you don't like and let me tell you had to change that fast drying is it fair try and guess what, there's retarders you could slow down the drying you can play chemist, you can make any quality you want string your thicker, more transparent or opaque all kinds of special effects with the paint itself. And the third area you can use medium gels that pace is over on top of a layer. Let's say you're painting and you want to put a veil over it, push it back in space, make it foggy. Just take a matte gel, put it on top, let's say you want to add washes like a watercolorist you can add a grit on top. So oil painters have a very specific layering order that they need to do otherwise the painting will crack and that is fat over lean something more flexible over something less with acrylic, it doesn't matter. You could do anything at any point. Acrylic loves to stick to itself. There's no science in terms of the layering that gives you a clue of kinds of things you can do with acrylic guests. I'm a big fan.
Kelly Anne Powers 7:27
Clearly there are a ton of options when someone is walking into acrylics as a medium. So if someone is walking in and they're feeling kind of overwhelmed, is there a place that you suggest they start
Nancy Reyner 7:39
in your toolkit of what you get, you don't need every pain every medium, every job every post, all you need is one medium one job one pays just to try them out along with a very minimum specific palette that I say there's six colors plus white and black, you get those and you can make any color so you don't need to spend a lot of money. So one medium, if you only had one medium, I would say the FA changed all the titles of the paints, it used to be acrylic glazing liquid now it's glazing medium, that's a slow drying medium, most people want to slow it down. And then one gel would be the soft gel gloss. That's a great glue. Everybody loves to glue mixed media artists especially. And my favorite all time product for paste is light molding paste. It's a very particular product, I don't know anyone else that makes it if you put it on a surface, it creates almost like a homemade piece of paper. So those would be the three, get those three. And then you can take any of those three, put them into paint colors, put them on your surface, put them on top, you know and play with it and learn that way too.
Kelly Anne Powers 8:41
If someone is coming into acrylics from like, for example, watercolor, I mean, I guess oil too, but someone's coming from an outside medium into watercolor. What are the mindset shifts they need to make
Nancy Reyner 8:54
each one is different. Let's start with watercolor, which is that people are used to watercolor being always re soluble. So you put it down on your paper and you can pick it up a little bit, but you usually work on paper, you would have to frame it behind glass galleries will charge half the price if it's not on a painting canvas, and because it's not permanent and glass, so you've got some limitations there but watercolor is very beautiful. You're really working with color and diluting it with the white of the paper acting as your white. You could do the exact same thing with acrylic, you would start with the fluids. They have a line of paints that's already it's not diluted. Most people get the thick paint and go Why would I pay extra to add water I'll just add my own water but it's total opposite. Acrylic is actually very thin. So the fluids are the pure acrylic paints. They have the same ratio of pigment to binder, but the thin binder the natural binder, the thicker acrylic paints were actually thickened to imitate oil paint, and you'd have to add more water to them to get them to watercolor dilution and you lose your color. So you want to start with the fluids for sure or you're just not going to have any kind taller by the time and you still need to add water just like watercolor. The difference would be that when you work with it and you're starting to paint, you can actually use white paint. And let's say you don't like an area, you can apply like the light molding paste, which replicates paper and put a whole new wash on there without anybody knowing that you just changed part of the, you can't do that with watercolor. The other thing is that you could start with a wood or Canvas surface, which most galleries like you apply one of the pace, there's so many great ones fiber pieces, like pieces of paper fiber, put that on, now you have a piece of paper, but it's not paper, it's permanent, it's not going to deteriorate like paper, well, you don't have to put it behind glass. Now use the acrylic with lots of water to replicate your washes, you have what could look exactly like one of your watercolors on paper. But now it's permanent acrylic looking like watercolor on paper, but it's also on a permanent substrate. So it's more archival, you could charge more, you don't have to put it behind glass. But the idea is, it's a little more flexible. I admire all watercolorist as quite a bay that they have to apply the paint, it's hard to go backwards through our masks and things. But I think this way, you could get the same effects. But with more leeway to make mistakes, you also asked about oil paint, and that's almost exactly the same, there's actually a line of paint that slow drying that imitates oil paint called open, all you have to do is really slow down your drying. That's the big difference between oil, paint and acrylic. And there's retarders. And there's like several different ways to slow down the drawing.
Kelly Anne Powers 11:36
There are so many techniques available to artists, how did you balance the learning new techniques versus learning how to use those techniques in your work?
Nancy Reyner 11:47
That is a really good question. I'm glad you brought that up. Because I think that artists see artists may be limited in terms of thinking that it's all about technique. And it's not. I mean, technique is important. Yes, technique is important. But I knew someone who was always taking workshops, like 30 years of painting, and she was always taking workshops, which is I like workshops. I mean, it's great to be inspired. But she wasn't painting on her own only in workshops. And I felt that for her. It was maybe a fear of what she would paint on her own. And that most workshops that you take, not mine, but most workshops that you take. And this isn't a bad thing. It's not a criticism. But most artists do one thing. And they do that, well, they've learned that one technique and this one style. And when they teach they teach that. And they're basically teaching other artists their technique. And I think in hopes that the students will branch off and make it their own. But often they people just copy. And so I think that I like to think of learning to master painting, you want to pick a medium, and at first you might want to try different ones. Just try them off, find out which one talks to you don't spend too much time does that yours go through all the different just pick one. And just like Joseph Campbell was great when he said that some people just study different philosophies all their life is said it's like a computer do you want to learn like every word processing process or just pick one and then write you know, pick one philosophy and do it. So same, pick one medium and just stick with it. And allow yourself to learn enough techniques that you can express yourself on the canvas. And at that point, that's the really, you have enough in your what I call toolkit, now you have a different you're at a different milestone. Now you need to create your own vision, create your own work. And often that starts with copying other artists work. But you got to realize that at some point, you have to stop and say well, what do I want to paint? How can I make this original, you can start with reference photographs and start with other artists work but you need to be conscious of saying but I want to I want to remould it for myself, I want to go in different directions. And when you have your toolkit it can be very small and then you realize that you're making work that is really coming from your own inner self and that you feel like you're an inventor and your your style is your own now you could go take some more workshops and add and but I think that a lot of people get stuck by just thinking I'm going to be a master artists by learning every technique and I can find and I think that you're stopping yourself from actually the creating part. So learn enough technique to say what you need to say that's the scary part is what I want to say. Right?
Kelly Anne Powers 14:29
There's such a mode and it's very satisfying going into a workshop or reading a book and if you get used to the feeling of the class when how weird to suddenly not have that same feeling translate into that other stuff but it's because it's a different thing.
Nancy Reyner 14:43
Yeah, I want to add to that too, which there's no right or wrong if you want to just copy in other artists the rest of your life because it feels free and creative great. If this is your this is each person is their outlet for creativity. Does it matter but boy it is so fulfilling when you You get to a point where you're like, oh my gosh, I'm making something that no one else is making, and you start to get people's response differently. But what I want to say is that when you take a workshop from someone else, or you read a book, like you said, here's the key is that they're the end results, they're the end result is already there, and you know, you like it. It's a done deal. And I often in a lot of my classes, talk about the left and right brain, the left and most people know about it, just summary left brain is our protector uses words, it's keeps time, it wants to know what the end result is. So it goes in fear mode, and it stops you from doing whatever you're doing. The right brain doesn't have fear it just like Bambi eating grass, and whatever do this thing. It's when we let our mind wander around our imagination is the brightest is in the right brain in the zone, we call it, the left brain starts all activities. And so a lot of beginners get stuck here, because it starts to paint, you can't paint from left brain because it doesn't want you to be distracted, it feels that if you're distracted, you could get eaten by a dinosaur or something just hit the old part of our brain. So it doesn't know nuance, it just says danger, not danger. And moving along and looking at everything and paying attention to the world around you is is safe and getting involved in a painting is is danger. So when the left brain has an end result, it's happy. And it lets you paint, when you're in the zone, you're just going to paint, the minute you see a blank canvas, it goes in fear mode, and but you got to do it because the blank canvas is going to be a reflection of you and no one else. And you know, I use photo references all the time. But I toss it when it's too much. You know, it's like, oh, I'm copying, you know, and then I'll toss it and look at the canvas. And the first reaction is my left brain going, Oh, where are you going, and then I've been painting I know this works. And my left brain knows that I'm going to pain anyway, there's a way to train your left brain to just take a back seat and allow yourself to paint, it just takes
Kelly Anne Powers 16:55
practice. But what I hear you saying is that if someone's experiencing that fear, that's normal, and they just have to learn how to train themselves, like their brain.
Nancy Reyner 17:05
Yes, all creative blocks, I think stem from the left brain trying to stop you. It's a very simple part of our brain, we aren't the left brain, we aren't the right brain, we are the person who can actually go back and forth between you do have control over it, I have lots of things in my course. One is breathe, blink, and swallow. So breathe. Blanket swallow is the opposite of what the left brain does stop you from painting. So I explained why the left brain is afraid of you painting, it's also afraid of you looking at a painting, when you're in a gallery, if you're looking too long, it'll try to stop us you have to train it that you're safe doing that activity and the left brain is very creative to try to stop you. It says, aren't you hungry? Why are you doing this paint is expensive, all the sabotage techniques to get you to stop. And if you catch yourself, the first part is catch it because it only works in secret. So if you say, Hey, this is my left brain trying to sanitize, you know, and then it'll stop. And it'll try to something else. But if you sweet talk, hey, you know what I'm going to pay it anyway. But thank you for being there and protecting me, I'm going to paint anyway. And you'll see it'll be okay, the left brain has been acknowledged, it'll let you go a certain amount. As soon as you go deeper into the work, it comes back in to check on you. And it can get pretty tricky. It can start to create pain, your hand hurting, things like that, where you stop painting, because like, oh, I can't do this. And suddenly your hand feels okay, then you know, it's like self therapy, you got to figure this out. Once you're in the zone, you're not conscious of being or not being you're just in there. But you'll know when you come out and then breathe legged swallow to go back in.
Kelly Anne Powers 18:42
So when you say breathe, blink and swell, it's like a thing that you do to get back in.
Nancy Reyner 18:47
Yeah, there's several things that I do. What the left brain does when you're painting is it holds your breath, it wants you to stop painting, it holds your breath, it grips the brush, and you stare like this, it puts you in fear mode. So if you stop breathing, grip your hand and make your eyes bulge out that's fear. If you breathe like a swell you get out of that fear. And then you're also telling your left brain, you're not going to get into it. There's other ways to the sweet talking. One thing I want to say Kelly is that ultimately you want to paint with both sides of your brain. And the way to do that is first separate and notice when your left brain is trying to sabotage and when it's not when you're in the zone. And then you start to feel both of those. And when I'm painting words are usually left brain that's a left brain in sabotage mode. It's fear. It's in fear mode, when words are sabotage techniques. Like you can't paint you're not good, that kind of stuff. But when you paint anyway, then you let the left brain come in. And so when I'm painting working with both sides of my brain looks like this. I'm painting and lettering goes Oh, look at that red. Oh, they're so bright as beautiful. I'm still painting but I hear words. That's the left brain being included in the process. You're still painting mostly from the right but the left isn't stopping you. And that's when you have the most power of when you're painting and you get the best results, whatever your vision is, comes out more clearly on there, because they're both working together,
Kelly Anne Powers 20:10
do you think having a process that you walk through helps, I don't want to call my left brain down, but like, let the left brain know that it's okay, that having a process that you use helps there?
Nancy Reyner 20:22
Yeah, there's several things you could do. And you know, each person's left brain has got its own creative sabotage technique, but it's all falls in the same thing, which is stopping you from painting, you know, it's such a strong, powerful part of being a human being, that we're not going to change it, but we can train it, that painting is okay. So it's going to come up at different times. And I think it's just being aware, it's going to be there in the beginning, it's like, if you're standing there, and you're holding your brush and going, maybe I should grid, maybe I should write down, I should figure out what I'm doing. Maybe I should, maybe I should just go do something else, you know, the thesis of the way left brain stops us and then notice it and say, Okay, I don't care what I paint, I just need to get in the zone and grab a brush, grab some paint. And there's a guy named Nick ladies, who wrote a book called the natural way to draw was like a main course book back in the 80s. For Life Drawing, he says, and I agree with him, he says, When you're in the right brain, or in the zone, there are no mistakes, you're painting what you need to paint, and it's going to be unique, and it's going to be great. It's good to be you coming out there. So I think that facing that blank canvas, and letting the left brain get in fear mode, just tell yourself, you know, I gotta get in the zone. I'm gonna paint anyway, and letting it flow from that right brain zone.
Kelly Anne Powers 21:44
Well, then, Could you walk us through your process?
Nancy Reyner 21:47
I've been painting for many, many years. For me, what's important isn't necessarily the end product. For me. It's what how can I get inspired? I've already done this, this and this, you know, what could be new for me. And so creating a painting, same way over and over again, I won't go to my studio, I won't show up. I'll show up. If I say what would happen if blank by blank, you know, that's what I like to do. And sometimes it takes me a while of just looking through images and writing and things like that. It sounds like left brain takeover. But sometimes I need to just get to a different zone or different place and say, Oh, that's interesting. I wonder what would happen if I made that. And then I get inspired. So I sometimes say to people, when they say how do you start, I say, well, whatever the last painting I did, whatever that process was, I do something different. You know, so I'm trying to be creative, even in my process. And a lot of artists, not a lot of artists have galleries that want a certain kind of painting. And some of them are happy producing the same thing over and over again, maybe changing the size or the color palette, or, and some people are not. And fortunately, the galleries that I have now I just tell them, hey, this is what I do. You don't want the painting, give it to another gallery to sell. And that's also the benefit of having multiple galleries is that each one wants a certain kind of work certain kind of size. So I I want to feel free to vary my work. So for me, that's why I get multiple galleries and for other people, that's not important. So how do I start, I just get an idea. And I love to collect references for it. The last painting I just did was of a night scene, I always like the lights at night of a city from a far distance with sort of with the sky, you can still see the sky. And here we have mountains wanted to do that. So I actually went and photographed the different places that dusk. So I took my own photos. And then I pieced them together in Photoshop, which I don't always do. But I had a specific vision I really wanted what I was seeing that made me so riveted to those night lights. And I was like how do I do this how I did. So I photoshopped sky that I liked with a set of mountains that I liked from another photo and, and I actually graded it up and work from that. And that was a very controlled process. And then the other times I work with what I call an uncontrolled process. We talked about this before, which is that the blank canvas and and letting yourself just be in the zone and the fear of that you don't have a specific outcome there. So that last painting that I just described, I had a very specific outcome. And that's one out of every 20 paintings. I do it that way. The rest of them. I like to be surprised by the end result. And my left brain is trained that it can handle that because I know that I can cover it over with white paint anytime I want. It's not going to kill me to make a painting that doesn't work. You know, it's okay. But the open ended idea. I like the most the uncontrolled process. So I'll start with let's say I'll start with a blank canvas. So I like to work panels panel, and I'll just say, All right, what's my favorite color today? And that goes on, and I put it on and I just keep going I get into the zone and just keep responding to what's there than having a specific reference
Kelly Anne Powers 24:58
because you don't necessarily Have a set process that you walk through every time. Are there phases that a painting goes through?
Nancy Reyner 25:06
These are great questions, Kelly, this is like the best interview? Because you're really asking me interesting questions. So this is great. Yes. So some artists have a very specific technical process. And I have more of a, what would be the word non technical, like thinking process, I guess, for the painting. So I do have a process, but not like I always use red at first. And then it's not that nailed down that detail. But I've broken my whole process, we've controlled it uncontrolled. Whatever I'm painting seems to have three cycles. And this really helped me I remember, it was a big aha moment, when I realized that if I really was aware of these three cycles, I could be more productive and make painting more fluid and fun. And that was the beginning, middle and end, which sounds simple. But I realized that when I was beginning a painting it for me, it was an act of freedom. And then when I was continuing a painting, it was an act of faith, because the beginning is always so exciting, like, oh, what size and oh, we could put these colors and everything's so exciting. And then you hit a point. And almost everyone hits this point where the painting actually has starts to have a voice. And it's actually telling you wants to go one way, and you've got this embedded image in your head of where supposed to go. And so there's maybe a little fight there. Because really, we're supposed to collaborate with the painting. And so it's almost like raising a kid like the child, so exciting, because she or he will do everything you say. And all of a sudden, they're their own person. No, no, no, you know. So same with a painting, it's like, wait a minute, this isn't what I planned. Because paint does its own thing, sometimes, you know, so then you hit this point where it's, you just you don't know where it's going, you can't control it, you just have to have faith that somehow you're gonna get out of this phase. And that phase is the longest part. And the hardest part I think of painting is working with it, looking at it, analyzing it getting in the zone, allowing play to take over taking away things that took you hours to paint because it doesn't work. This is the hard part. So there's the beginning, the act of freedom, the middle act of faith, the last part is the most fulfilling, in a way I shouldn't say most fulfilling, but it's the most exciting because usually the painting is like 85% done. It's already as a presence. It's the kid that's ready to go to college, now you know what they like. And now you just put the finishing touches that make it go from good to great that like, okay, now I know what I'm saying I have the general color palette styles on there, it's pretty established. And this is where I take people in my book, create perfect paintings, I have 10 steps to look at the painting to see if everything's covered. Like, there's some things that artists don't realize, which is we most of us read from left to right. In the Western world, we look at a panning from left to right, so the left edge, the first couple of inches left edge, so important, and most people just dive right into the middle. But the left edge is where you create this, almost like in a movie in the beginning of the movie, they set up the motion. And so I say well, do you have a blocked entry, I call it or is it open? So little things like that the changes I make in this last part, if you show some normal average non artist person a before and after, they wouldn't notice the difference. But they would be riveted to the one with all the tweaks with all the so this last one is a act of healing because you're actually allowing the painting to be what it is, but just helping it along in a better way. That last phase, it's really important to know this because it's easy to want to do your next painting on this painting. And that's where people kill a painting. So this last one is an act of healing, you have to be very gentle with the painting, and not like suddenly introduce whole new forms and change the whole color palette. Well a lot of people do that. They'll keep changing the painting over and over this last stage and they have 10 paintings on one creating kind of a crusty surface.
Kelly Anne Powers 29:07
How do your goals change between each of those cycles?
Nancy Reyner 29:12
Yeah, that's good. So not only do I have three cycles, and each one has a different energy, you know, act of freedom is a certain kind of energy. I have to feel free. Otherwise I'm not going to start in a fresh way. And that energy of healing is more delicate, sensitive one. But what I realized is that in one day, and this is just me, I know some people can work on one painting and they go through all their cycles if they have them like I do in one day. I can't do that. This is where my big aha moment was I walked in and I had paintings in process which is that teeth gripping you know kind of and I wanted to start I wanted to feel free. And I said you know what it says your studio, grab 10 New canvases and start testing but my left brain says but these are almost videos you should work out, should you too. And I realized that when I come in my studio, I'm at one energy or the other, instead of changing my energy to force myself to finish a painting or to work on it, I go with that energy. So what I do is I walk in my studio and say, Do you feel like working on something new? Do you feel like that fresh feeling of, and then I'll do that all day, I'll start 10 paintings. So I've got a lot of surfaces. Or if I kind of don't, I mean that in between new things, I think I'll just prime and gesto and fix up surfaces, so I have them when I need them. And once in a while I do come in with this certain energy that feels very sensitive. And I have racks of paintings that are like 70%, done 80%. And I just looked at him and went, I don't it doesn't do it for me anymore. I put it away for someone else, I pull those out. And I can finish three or four in a day when I have that mode. But it's not equal. I would say I have less time when I do that. So I want to take advantage if I start new things, if I'm feeling free energy, and I should be starting new paintings, but I take a painting that's almost done. I will for sure ruin that painting. I'll just repaint it. So I have to pay attention to how I'm feeling. So when
Kelly Anne Powers 31:12
you're in that continuing middle phase, how do you decide what goes down next?
Nancy Reyner 31:22
I get this a lot from clients who are suddenly in left brain trying to figure it out. The right brain will know abstract expressionists, I love that movement. And there are some artists that are still working in that movement. But the idea was all response. The idea was throw something or put a mark down. Like let's say you take a brush and you put a black stroke down. Now you look at it. Now it's a canvas with a black stroke. How do you respond to that? Oh, I would like a shape down here with you know, this is abstraction with realism. You pretty much know in the beginning where you're heading, my former neighbor, he the late neighbor, Glenn now is a professor of painting in the University of Tucson, I just loved having him as a neighbor, miss him, our studios were right next to each other. And it was so fun to have painter next door. And I'd be doing this crazy artists to him, you know, doing like, who knows what, and he would come over, like, just sit there and go, ha, that's really you know, interesting what you're doing. And I go over to his place, and he'd come in a suit and tie every day in the studio. He was so adorable. And he would work on one painting at a time from his photographs, he would go on photo. And his was super real. He would do like scenes of hotels with neon signs and trucks and cars very interesting Western realism. And this one painting that he was doing was a swimming pool on the front, and then a hotel with the neon sign. And it was this little kid in there like jumping in the water with palm tree back there. And I love that painting. And I would go over and check on him. And we would give each other advice. Sometimes, you know, we take it or leave it. And I was like, wow, I think you know that kid is just really messing up your whole painting. I mean, it's a great kid. It's just adorable kid jumping up with a little bathing suit and everything. And we're looking at and he's like, wow, you know what? You're right. I was like, Wouldn't it be great to just not have him in there? Because look at all the sunset, everything. He took it out. So how do you decide I mean, even a realistic person needs to look at where the paint is going and respond. By the way, I bought that painting. I have it in my house. So the question was in the process, how do you know what to do next. And that process, the middle section is the longest part, the long haul, sometimes we could do it quickly. But if you're in right brain, you will know what to do. It's tough. So I actually have I have a free video on YouTube called six ways to know your painting is truly finished. And it does go through this last section where it talks about how everybody kind of paints in right brain and his own and then steps back. There's like this point where you look, you're looking at the whole How is it and that's pretty much the left brain going how's it going? You know, it's okay. But at that point, when you step back, I would say my number one tool is I've trained my eyes to see where your normal viewer is going to follow. Most people think you see an image all at once. But it's almost like a film watching the film. You come in on the left, you move through diagonals or high contrast areas. And you want the viewer to stay in that movement in the painting as long as possible to have a deeper, richer experience. And so I've trained my eyes to just go at it. It's like letting the dog off the leash. Where are they going? Now artists tend to automatically go to their favorite part is you have to train your eye to say if I never saw his painting before, so you're standing back Well, can you pay me if I never saw his painting before? Where does my eye go? Now, if there's an issue, if there's a something that's keeping someone from enjoying this nice movement, your eye will keep going to it. So let's say there's like a big splash of white somewhere and you're not noticing it because you're looking everywhere else. You really let your eye go it'll go to that part and they'll keep going there like it's what your brain is trying to do is trying to Why is that there? You know, it's trying to figure out is it? So an issue is when something stands out by itself and leaves the illusion of the painting, it's usually an issue, your eye will keep going to it. So I let my eye flow. If my eye keeps flowing and keeps going, and it's enjoying the ride, it could be done. If not, then there's still things to do. And those are paying attention to spots. And I've noticed with a lot of artists, because I have a lot of students and clients, we critique paintings all the time. And I say, Where's your eye going? And this is huge issue. Once I pointed out, they're like, oh, my god, yeah, you're right. It's this large, but they don't notice it, because they're just on a track. So I would say the most important thing is to is to exercise your eyes. I call it eye yoga for painters. Again, this is the course that I created, because I felt like most people were just relying on technique. And it's not technique anymore. If you want to call it technique, it's your eyes being able to analyze and they're very smart eyes are very intelligent, do you
Kelly Anne Powers 35:56
encourage people to not do this, while they're painting like, this is a different thing.
Nancy Reyner 36:00
Starting a painting, you need to get in the zone and not think about anything. I mean, just if you want to have reference material nearby, great your eyes, your fantastic, intelligent eyes can just lit from one thing to another and put it together for you in your right brain that I call the play phase. There's no place for analytic thinking here, the analytic thinking comes usually when the painting has presents the kid ready for college, it's 85%. Done. And I have a way of checking using your eye to check the three big areas of color, dark, light, warm, cool, bright dolt, if the painting has a satisfactory amount for you for what you're doing. But in other words, if you have a meditative painting, you're not going to have strong contrast, let's say but you want to look at it and say, does this work? If it does have what I call the big three in the pairs that it needs, then you could start to analyze it and use your eye to I'm still looking with my right brain, interestingly, but I'm using my eye to figure out if there's a place that's stuck, where should I work? So when I step back to look, I take a moment, and I'll do the I, you know, I'll say where's Why am I going through this, you, if I see one, I go right to it and fix it, I don't just write it down and try to find all the because it's like a chess game, you solve that one, and it could solve the rest of them. The danger is trying to do both left and right brain using analytics and painting at the same time now, gotten so fast at being able to analyze that I can literally while I'm painting, say let me just check, I step back, I go, Okay, this is working, keep going. And I go back in, when I started teaching this analytics, I had students that were trying to do in the very beginning, and I'm like that's going to spoil painting for you don't and plus the right brain, like the zone is where your inner goes on to the canvas, unedited. It's pure and powerful. A great painting has spirit in it. Some people think great paintings are high technical. That's not me, you know, but those are just as valid. Yeah, you want to make sure that you're allowing the right brain to make most of the decisions, you can finish a painting so fast that way and successfully. So it's really where that left brain comes in. Every time it comes in while you're painting. This is what I'm saying try not to do left brain comes in while you're painting. It'll create weird issues, it puts things in corners, it's six things dead center, it tries to drive the viewer off quickly. So that's what analysis is for is, is hoping that 90% or 99% of that painting is right brain stuff. That's good stuff. And you got to just allow play and trust and freedom in there to get that once you have that, then you could go in and tweak or analyze and take out things. You know what this reminds me a lot of writing, like if you were writing in your diary, you don't have to edit because no one's reading it. But you, you can repeat yourself a million times, you know, I don't like this, I don't think there's no way that you could just use it for processing. But let's say you're a writer, and you have a diary. And you say wow, this is good processing stuff, I think I'll write a book with it, you're not just going to slap a cover on it and decide it's going to be a good read, you're gonna go through it, you're going to keep the bulk of the content, but you're going to shift by say why I repeated this 20 times do I really need to do that I did it for me to process but I don't need for the reader. So I'm putting in 10, red roses, all the same red, the repetition is gonna kill the viewer experience. So I'll keep one I'll change the other ones to pink and orange. I'll take these out. So a lot of it is the analytics is really for that last part in the hopes that you already had the bulk of it from that right brain, the raw internal material. When
Kelly Anne Powers 39:41
you walk into a painting, do you have a really clear emotional response that you're hoping to create or where does Where does aiming toward a particular emotion come into your work?
Nancy Reyner 39:55
That is a good question because that is an important part of my work. Some people have a very, very clear, specific vision of what they wanted to look like, I have a very specific feeling that I want to get when it's done. So I'll keep working. And people could come in the studio and say, Oh, I like it just like that don't touch, it doesn't mean anything to me if I can't get that, that wow, feeling. So it is important for me to keep stepping back and looking as if I was a viewer. That's the important part. If you step back and keep looking with your own left brain, you're going to kill the painting. So I stepped back to look like what's the overall feel. And I like to connect by eye to my heart kind of thing, like bypass the brain. Just look at it, soak it in, how does it feel? And if it feels good, I keep going. And I keep going until I stand back and go, Wow, you know, now viewers might not agree with me. But I know it's finished when I have that feeling of like a completeness and a in a presence that has this very strong presence.
Kelly Anne Powers 40:57
How explicit in your mind is a particular feeling? So for example, like do you look at something you're working on and say, I want this to be serene? Or I want this to be hopeful? Do you do that? And if so, how, and where does that come in what I'm
Nancy Reyner 41:12
going for my intent, if you will. So an intent could be like I said, somebody having a specific image, the intent is is the image, the intent could be a specific emotion. So my intent is going to change for each painting. But in general, because at this point, I have a maturity. So like my work all has a certain kind of a feel to it. So I kind of have preferences, I go for more of the meditative. I want somebody to feel like they can enter it and relax or enjoy. I know some artists are interested in a political shock, value, political anger, you know, art can be anything. But that's not me. I don't want that hanging in my studio. My life is about no drama anyway. So I don't want drama on my paintings. So my pain has got to be me, when you get to that point where you're creating your own work, it's got to be who you are. And no one should tell you that you shouldn't do that kind of work. When someone meets me, I'm hoping that they'll get the same feeling from being with me, as from my paintings, a lot of
Kelly Anne Powers 42:17
people want to get started, especially if they come in because they love acrylics, and, and it can be really hard to sort of focus where they're spending their time and attention. How long did it take you to find styles that really felt like you, and were worth you spending time there.
Nancy Reyner 42:35
I remember that point. And I think anyone that paints and makes it a practice is going to naturally find their own style. And making a practice could be something as simple as one hour on a Sunday, every Sunday, or one hour, four days a week, people think, Oh, I can't let brain sabotage I can't be a painter because I don't have eight hours, five days a week. Well, who does you know, and that's way too much painting time anyway, we can't do anything happily that long. So I would say many of my clients are in a mature years. And when I tell them how many years it took me, they get angry at me and say I don't have that time. That time. And that's okay, I took a long time because I love teaching. And I come from a teaching family. My mother and father were both teachers. And I think it's just hereditary because I love teaching as much as I love painting. And so they always paired together. So I spend a lot of time painting. But I also love to analyze, I wanted to translate what I was doing for somebody to teach them. So that's been all along the decades doing that. Not everybody does. Plus, in the beginning, I liked learning a lot of new things. I wanted to learn all new, all new techniques, everything. I was like a technique junkie. And that's why I tell people you don't need that many techniques you don't but I liked that I liked learning. And I remember looking at famous artists Chuck closest work, this might have been a big aha moment, too. He does these large scale realistic faces. But you go up close there. He did fingerprints in ink, and you go back and they're totally realistic, but opposed to just all fingerprints. And then his work is just stunning. He's one of my favorite artists way back when I was younger, I went to New York City just to see what was at the museum. And I was like, oh, no, it's Chuck Close. I actually said that. Like because I was used to seeing his little faces, you know, in a book. I was like, well, you're already in New York, go go, you know, and this really changed a lot for me because I went to the show, and it blew me away. I think I had to just do nothing the rest of the day because the work was so fascinating. They were 20 feet big these faces and you go back and forward and it was just amazing. And I realized the first thing I realized was never judge a painting by a picture of it. Because when you're seeing a painting in person, it has a certain presence that rarely translates through into its photograph, because the size, everything, the texture, the feel of the paint. So that was the first thing. And the other AHA about Chuck clothes was that he for decades, decades, decades, he did the same thing over and over again. Now he had an issue where he couldn't recognize faces. And that's why he decided to paint faces are just stunning. I mean, just everybody should go go see a Chuck Close in prison. But what I thought was, I saw his work. And I was like, Oh, my God, he's so not me. Like, nobody can pin me down. And I was doing other things for money. So I, I always liked that, that I wasn't putting pressure on my painting. I just wanted to just try everything. And I said, Oh, that's interesting. Artists could do two things. They could either be like me and just go across the surface, I pictured it across the surface, just trying all these things. Or they could be like Chuck Close, picking one spot and going really deep down, like digging digging me like how can I take faces, large scale phases, to an epitome to a fine point. And I thought what a gift this artist is giving, before this moment, I couldn't understand why artists would just do one thing all their life. Like why what's wrong with them? You know, when I was there, I was like, I get it, that someone could just want to go deeper with one thing, what a gift chuckles is giving us that he is taking this one thing that nobody else is doing. And going so so far decades and decades of it. And you'll see that it goes from thumb prints to if you could pick your tiny little squares of abstract paintings, up close, they're all in color, now are the last ones and 20 feet, okay, you go up and there's like millions, millions of little tiny abstract paintings that when you go back there become a realistic portrait. How amazing. So that was good, because I really valued then diversity with the artists I understood, like, everybody has a different intent. This is before I was doing a lot of teaching, you know, and now that's my shtick is like, when someone asked me for help I do coaching, there's no formula. It's I want to know what they want to do. I mean, it was a lot, a lot of really interesting, heavy internal discussion of because I want to help them make their work not be like everybody else.
Kelly Anne Powers 47:08
So if someone came to you and said, I want to get really good at painting, what advice do you give them
Nancy Reyner 47:14
do it? You know, I mean, here's the thing is that a lot of people think they have to go to art school. And I'm a teacher. So I'm not gonna put down teachers in general. But most of what I learned that's really helpful for me, I learned by doing it, and paying attention and doing it again and again and again. And so I would say to be a good painter, just trust that you have a uniqueness, like we all are unique. And we're all artists, we're all creative beings, we are already creative beings. If we want to make an image, it will happen on its own. And it will get better and better and better as we do it. The idea is to just get in that zone, because that's where the real painting happens. Not in the left brain, your left brain is going to want to put a like you have to paint like this artist, you have to paint like this. And it's okay in the beginning but alter it alternate it with sit down with the darn white canvas and what will happen if you get in the zone and conquer the that left brain trying to sabotage because then you're going to learn you're going to be on speed to draw, you know, you'll learn fast, you'll learn great, I've seen clients go from nothing to oh my god great in like a year. But that's because I'm encouraging them to do that. And sometimes it's just nice to have a coach once in a while to just point out when that left brain is keeping you from your next step. I would say that's the biggest thing when somebody wants to work with me and I I'm very loose about it, they can just schedule a session on Zoom or come in and work with me in the studio. I encourage them to take my master course the art of painting beyond technique, because it really does. It's almost everything I've talked about. And then we can really zoom in on how to make it personal. And we could go real fast that way. You know what, you don't need anybody's help. I mean, just grab some page, start painting. It's a self expression mode. And you certainly don't need to go to art school for that art school is helpful. I think like it was helpful for me as a teacher to say I went to Columbia. I went like I have credentials, so I know what I'm talking about. But really, the big secret is that almost everything I learned my painting.
Kelly Anne Powers 49:19
You can learn more about Nancy Reiner including her workshops at Nancy Reiner, and that's our e yner.com. And on Facebook, Instagram and YouTube and we'll link to everything in the show notes. Thank you so much for being with us today, Nancy.
Nancy Reyner 49:33
Thank you, Kelly. This was my favorite interview yet I've done a lot of them but you really dove into some deep concepts that I I really enjoyed answering thank you so much.
Kelly Anne Powers 49:44
That's it for the main episode, but there's more great conversation with Nancy Rainer over at patreon.com/learn. To paint podcast we dig deeper into Rayners ocean and goldleaf series and you'll learn how focal points can help move your view From a left brain to a right brain experience and why it matters, sign up at any tier and you'll get immediate access to the extended cut with Nancy Rainer plus a bunch of bonus conversations from past guests. Speaking of the podcast art club a thank you to everyone making this show possible. extra shiny thank yous to high gloss supporters, Andrew atterberry, Debbie and Brian Miller, Rihanna de rolled Janet Wheeler, Nancy Bryant, Catherine Ordway, Pam Lyle and Victoria young, happy painting
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